[rerevisionist]

I think possibly you understate the extent to which things must have been made up on the fly, without having been thought through - obviously something likely to happen in anything fairly long-term.

QUOTED FROM FirstClassSkeptic

It had occurred to me that perhaps Groves and the others realized that they had gone too far in promoting their imaginary atomic bomb as a wonderful weapon. The general public began thinking up a lot of good uses for it.

During Vietnam, people said, "Why don't they just drop the bomb on them?" And even during the Iraq invasion, people said,"Why don't they just nuke them?" It may have surprised the Manhattan group that White Christians didn't have any reservations about obliterating non-white, non-Christians. And why be afraid of a weapon that only you possessed?

Realizing that the public might start demanding the use of the atomic bomb, which of course couldn't be realized because it didn't exist, they had to think up reasons not to use the bomb. So I can imagine a four prong method:

1) Promote this radiation stuff, that drifted with the wind, so that an atomic war could never be localized, but affected everyone around earth.

2) Promote the 'brotherhood of man' in all the Christian churches, so that white Christians would have some reservations about bombing someone halfway around the world. (I don't think this has worked so well, really.)

3) 'Leak' the plans for the imaginary weapon to the USSR and other places. Develope Mutually Assured Destruction. So the weapon isn't yours alone anymore.

4) Juice the weapons up to such a size, and say there are so many of them, and talk about how many times over the earth could be destroyed.

Thus making nuclear war 'unthinkable'.

[rerevisionist]

I thought FirstClassSkeptic's comment was so good I copied it, above. (It is from a discussion on whether radiation was propaganda, or not). Here's my George Bernard Shaw-style attempt to dramatise part of what might have happened. Some of the dialogue is a bit stereotypical.

Secret meeting in Los Alamos April 1945. Cigar smoke and the smell of brandy fill the air of the hot desert evening.

GROVES: Well, gentlemen, let's get to work. Let's review the situation.

SACHS: Oy vey, the Germans are still holding out. Think of the money we are losing not printing Deutschemarks.

GROVES: Say, the Fed ain't everything, you know

SPAATZ: We are bombing Germany all the time now. And strafing. It sure is fun to bomb and shoot them Germans. But [sigh] what we need is really big bombs. Them blockbusters just ain't big enough. We drop whole blizzards of them bombs, but it's a slow job, we need loadsa planes. [Sigh]. [Brightens up:] Firebombs are great for gooks, though.

SACHS: Oy vey, just don't bomb Ford Motors - we put a lot of money in dem factories!

OPPENHEIMER: Spatz, you want a big bomb. This is where we can help. This is why you're here. Me and GG, General Groves, that is. We've been working for years on nuclear weapons. Secret project. You heard of ee equals em cee squared?

SPAATZ: Don't call me spats. It's Spaatz, Spaarrrtz. But sure, I heard a that Einstein baloney.

OPPENHEIMER: This is of course top secret. GG will fill you in.

GROVES: Oppy here and the long-hairs have made great progress. The bomb is almost ready. Well, it's been almost ready for years now. [Laughs]. But we're ready to test. Just in time, eh Oppy? [Winks at Oppenheimer]

SPAATZ: Suppose it don't work?

GROVES: We thought a that. We'll try it on Japan. Or we'll pretend. Nobody can understand Japanese anyway! Besides we can control their news.

SPAATZ: Waal, OK, just make sure it ain't too heavy. Say - just how big a bang will these things do?

OPPENHEIMER: Spaatz, the sky's the limit. We may blow up the whole world! There's no limit! It's real great! Well, that's in theory. We invented this word, kilotons, that's of TNT. Thousands of tons. Huge blast and we got writers working on the descriptions - we quite like 'mushroom cloud of deadly poison radiation'. Lemme quote the Bhagavad Gita...

SPAATZ: Never mind that, Oppenheimer. Say I hear there's trouble starting in India - trust them Brits to bugger it up. But anyway - a real big bomb? We'll rule the world! One plane will make 'em cower down! The US will rule everyone! It's just great! I run the airforce - I'll be dictator!! We'll rule Europe. And all a south America. Maybe we'll get them Africans working! And we can tell Stalin where to shove it [swigs brandy]

SACHS: Oy vey, Stalin is our brave ally, and vot an investment manager he is

SPAATZ: Could be a little problem. Them B29s go real fast, they claim 400 miles an hour. That's 600 feet a second. All it needs is some bomb-aimer jerking himself off to some comic, and you overshoot a coupla miles. We're trying to automate it. But then they keep finding noo winds, strong winds. And the characteristic way the things fall makes a helluva difference. So it ain't that easy hitting a target. A few miles...

GROVES: Umm well. Lemme tell ya something, Spaatz. I'll be honest with you. I'm gonna be honest. But lemme tell ya this. If news of our little meeting gets out, you get trouble. You get the sack. Understand? No more work, see? And it's wartime and things might just happen to you, savvy?

SPAATZ: Sure, GG

GROVES: We ain't 100% sure this thing will work. I'm being honest. It hasn't been tested. Who knows. Now Oppy and his long-hairs say they are sound people, but I'll be honest with you - I don't always understand what they do. And half the time they're gabbling with Stalin's group. Sometimes even them Germans. Oppy says the chance of success is 50%. But he goes a bit quiet when I ask questions. They all go quiet. So he would say that. Anyways we have a test rigged up in the desert - plus a duplicate with a pile of TNT to impress people just in case it don't work.

SACHS: They sure have used a lot of money on this project. But there's plenty more in the Fed. You want money - we gottit!

GROVES: Sure you have. And I'm real grateful. Now, we're going to test at night so nobody can really see what's going on.

OPPENHEIMER: GG, I do have some papers and stuff hidden away, just in case something happens to me. But gentlemen, gentlemen, let me remind you - this war is nearing the end. It's bin good for all of us. But we have to think what we'll do after. After the first war, there sure were a lot of pensioned-off brass!

SPAATZ: If we get these big bombs, then we can bomb anyone we want. I'll be in work forever. Not sure about Groves, though! Or Oppenheimer! Once it's invented, that's it. We won't need you. Still, you have your family clothes business. [laughs]

GROVES: Spaatz, you haven't understood. If it works, we make plans. We have Franck working on some dumb report for Stimson. We leak it, so people get worried. But we have to make a plan when - err if - it don't work. But see we have big enough bombs now to pretend, if we have to. And them aiming isn't a problem. There's this great stuff called napalm, sort of jelly, makes a big cloud a smoke, better than these cylinder bomb things. We got better explosives now. We have aluminum powder.

SPAAZT: You can't be serious! People will find out

GROVES: That's what I thought. But there's this great new invention, tele-vision they call it. Like a little cinema in your own house. Damned if I can figure out how they get the little men in there. But Sachs knows all the brass at Radio City and NBC and the rest, and they will say whatever's needed.

SPAATZ: [Thoughtfully] Well, it's true there was a firestorm at Dresden and a good one at Tokyo, too. Whole place burnt up, bodies turned to hot dust. Who would know what caused it? We have the whole journalism corps and none of them ever step outa line. Anyway, why would any country take the risk if we threaten them? Didn't we win the biggest war in history? Besides, I don't wanta join unemployment lines after the war! I might end up in journalism for chrissake. Say, what does Eisenhower say? Roosevelt?

GROVES: Eisenhower is only interested in killing them Germans before Yo Kipper, whatever they call it. He's on a roll. Then when we win he's got years of fun ahead of him. There's this plan to make all Germany rural, bit like the dustbowls, some guy called Morgen something thought it up. But Roosevelt might be difficult. I know he's lied about his wheelchair all this time. But he might not go along with this.

SACHS: Well, we have plans for that. The Special Services...

GROVES: [Interrupts] I think you can be sure it'll go smoothly.

OPPENHEIMER: What if someone else says they know how to do it? Could be a problem. There are scientists all over the world. If we bluff, what's to stop them doing the same? Of course, we are mostly friends, there is that. Professional solidarity, you might call it.

GROVES: Well, there's a lot of scope for deception here. Radiation, that's real dangerous. It might spread all over. And we got big blasts. Giant blasts. Directed blasts. Air blasts. Noo bombs using noo ideas. Noo delivery systems. Noo dangers. Noo elements. Big bombs, small ones. Air ones. Ground ones. Underground ones. Smuggled ones. The public won't know they're coming or going.

OPPENHEIMER: We could plan a few leaks and a few spies with a lotta publicity. Then we could tighten up security! No passports, that kinda thing. No access to plant. Complete secrecy. Military police. Keep them in the dark! So we'll all be in work! Sounds great.

SACHS: And my people can get to Israel. If they want to or not. We have to do something about the British though.

GROVES: One a them limeys called me a gullible builder! Can you believe that. [Bites cigar angrily]. A few hanged officers would do it. Hey, do you have any legal rights?

SACHS: We'll rig up some phoney trial with our politbureau science mates and Stalin, to get the sheep on our side. Kill off der German leaders - give the bastards what they deserve. Torture them. Get them all outa the way. It'll take a few years - 1948 should be about right. Time to fix up the details with Stalin. Palestine - who cares about legal rights already? Democracy shamocracy.

GROVES: Right. OK. Look. Here's my plan. We gotta have bombs for Japan. So we ship a coupla dummy bombs to Tinian. With a film crew. Tricky because the sailors mustn't know it's phoney. They have to look good. Stick some aerials on them. Make them look heavy. Any leak, we have to take serious action. Has to be done soon. Then after that we run the test and order the press to come. We'll call it 'Trinity' to give em a thrill. Film it from a few miles and tell them what to print. Newsreels and radio too. But full wartime censorship. We check everything.

SPAATZ: Now, Japan is trying to surrender so we haven't got too much time. We're holding them off. After we'll brief the press for maybe twenty years after the war. The new world begins, with the USA as the dictator of the world!

SACHS: Zere are some opportunities in Japan!

SPAATZ: Word from LeMay is the Japs had a takeover. This Bushido crap is dead. If we flatten the cities, they can build after the war, with no land ownership problems - skyscrapers and bathrooms and all that. Sort of free-of-charge land clearance scheme from us, courtesy of Uncle Sam.

SACHS: Sounds good, already. And cheap labour after the war. These white guys ain't no good at work, but we won't tell 'em. [Laughs]

SPAATZ: What about Churchill?

GROVES: Churchill knows nothing. Anyway his advisor is another one of the chosen. Stalin knows nothing. Mustn't push Stalin though. If the thing doesn't work, we can't risk him fighting on. He wouldn't care if a few millions Russians died. So we concede. Eastern Europe's a shithole anyway. All agreed?

ALL: Cheers!

[FirstClassSkeptic]

Perhaps you can work in a scene where General Groves, or one of the other characters, is riding on the train with his wife. There is a woman passenger on the train whose boy keeps running up and down the aisle, making noises, and generally annoying the other passengers.

The woman keeps telling her son, "now behave. Stop that. Don't make me come get you." And keeps a long line of threats going, which the boy knows won't ever happen. Or he knows how far to push his mother.

The wife of Groves turns to Groves and says, "Why doesn't she just slap the boy a good one." However, Groves just keeps watching the boy while at the same time, he is deep in thought.

[FirstClassSkeptic]

Then there's Louis Slotin who finds out in 1946 that a critical mass doesn't explode. He starts talking about it to his friends and family. So Groves has to figure out a way to murder him, and blame it on radiation.

https://www.nuclearfiles.org/menu/librar ... -louis.htm

This solves the problems of Slotin's loose lips, and also builds the belief in the scientific community that radiation is deadly.

At what point do they murder FDR?

[rerevisionist]

I see you're entering the spirit of this. The full story would make John le Carre look like lightweight tripe - as I presume it is; I've never been able to get through any of his books. Maybe Peter Jackson would take on the film! Might be distribution problems though.

Several people have mentioned the possibility of having FDR being murdered. Including Dave Martin who's done his best to expose the murder of Forrestal. There seem differing accounts of FDR's death.

2) Promote the 'brotherhood of man' in all the Christian churches, so that white Christians would have some reservations about bombing someone halfway around the world. (I don't think this has worked so well, really.)

-- Another good point you've made. We're accustomed to bland 'human rights' statements by (supposed) church leaders - the Archbishop of Canterbury [Rowan Williams - rerev] being an especially laughable bearded berk - he was appointed from a short list by Tony Blair. (I don't know who the others were on the shortlist). Of course human rights don't apply to Afghans, Iraqis etc.
But - now you mention it - Protestant Christian leaders were notorious for supporting the First World War - both in Britain and Germany - and the Second, including bombing of civilians. Catholics supported approximations to genocide in the Congo, in Cambodia and Vietnam etc.
It's easy to forget these airbrushed-out changes of outlook. (I don't know to what extent this applied/applies in the USA).

[mooninquirer]

Excellent points about the problems that nuke bombs would pose ---- they presented a problem as to why they would not be used in other wars. This is why is was so important that the USSR be seen as acquiring the bomb, so that the American public would have to worry about retaliation.

Perhaps the Rosenbergs angered other Jews in power, and they were used to perpetuate the notion that the USSR had nukes. They might have functioned in the same manner as Bernie Madoff of today, or even Jonathon Pollard ---- to be Jewish fall guys, so that the claim can be made that Jews are not all powerful.

I disagree that "the brotherhood of man" was promoted in the churches as part of this propaganda, because that had already been a part of Christian theology, especially Catholic theology. If anything, there has been a great increase in the promotion of the OPPOSITE of the "brotherhood of man" ethic ---- the teaching of Darwinian evolution in the public schools ( in America ), and a very great increase in the power of public schools, and a maniacal and irrational prohibition of anything pertaining to God in public schools, to the point that a teacher would at a minimum be fired if he even mentioned God at all. And many Catholic and other religious schools are closing because parents cannot afford to pay the tuition, while also paying the very high and mandatory public school / property tax.

{ I believe that the Civil Rights Act of 1964 was working against the "brotherhood of man, " among many other things. Insofar as it was a basis for PRIVATE organizations and people to sue one another, it greatly promoting a lot of fighting and discord among Gentiles. I call it SOCIAL ENTROPY. Before, people might have been accepted because of their loyalty and character, but since RELIGION was included in the CRA 1964, it forbade discrimination against people because of their disloyalty and refusal to assimilate into their group. Britain and other European countries must have a law similar to this one, because immigration would be a complete nonissue if people had the freedom to choose who they can associate with. In America, a law such as the Civil Rights Act of 1964 was a cosmic paradigm shift, because it completely overturned the First Amendment guarantee of the right of freedom of association ( freedom of peaceable assembly ). This law would have been declared unconstitutional, but WHO was the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court ? Earl Warren, of the Warren Commission fame, a major architect of Jewish domination. }

Even students themselves are forbidden to pray, even if they do it entirely on their own accord. This is NOT what the American public wants, but it just shows the enormous amount of political power the Jews have. Even within the Democratic Party, this is not what the voters want, but the Jews have practically unlimited bank accounts, and they can promote or destroy a politician with the media. The promotion of Atheism and the teaching of Darwinism is very significantly stated as a goal in "The Protocols of Zion."

A reason they did not try to pull this on Germany, is because the USSR was too close and could have been witnesses, and besides, it would have turned the Germans into VICTIMS, which is the complete opposite of what the Jews had in store for the Germans ---- for them to have been portrayed as especially evil, with the holocaust.

[rerevisionist]

Very good posting, mooninquirer. You've mentioned before that promoting Darwin was in effect a Jewish aim, and I wasn't sure what you meant. But now I see your point. (Jane Birdwood's piece, 'The Longest Hatred - Anti-Gentilism', which I posted on Internet, has a comment on Darwin at the end, and I couldn't work out why at the time).

I don't think the idea of promoting legal action as part of Jewish strategy has been mentioned either - at least, I don't recall it. Yet of course as a way of promoting discord it makes perfect sense, as well as encouraging people to take up what is surely a largely sterile occupation, of legal disputes over ideas, and make it look useful and not just a disruptive money-making exercise. And it helps entrench the idea that a small clique of lawyers can overrule large numbers of people.

And of course if the revisionist view of 'nuclear weapons' is correct, they had a huge problem. It's often said that instead of Hiroshima, they could have demonstrated the 'awesome power of the new superweapon' in front of Japanese military officials, who would then surrender. But maybe the Japanese military would be less gullible than the controlled media hacks. And I don't remember anyone suggesting that the Germans could have been shown a demonstration of an atom bomb, carried out to get them to surrender - and yet that seems just as rational an action; but, of course, if anything, Germans would be the most sceptical of all. And as you say, the Germans were not to be made official victims - even if they were destined to be killed off in millions out east, something which has only slowly leaked out.

As to brotherhood of man, of course it was part of Catholic beliefs, but in practice it was submerged by political concerns. Germany, or the territories now called Germany, was devastated by wars of religion after the Reformation or 'Protestant Revolt'. The are still many people who unthinkingly state that 'all wars are caused by religion' which is likely (I think) to be a slogan left over from that time. The clue here is imho that the Church was made official and powerful when it became the state religion of Rome, imposed from above. They wanted to hold their empire together, and an ideology that all the tribes were brothers was worth trying. I assume most people within the empire wouldn't have much chance of meeting people outside it, so the general statement was near enough. It's exactly like political correctness - immigrants are wonderful and just like us, everyone is the same under the law, human rights are paramount - that is, unless they're Vietnamese or Iraqis or Afghans or, now, Libyans.

I'm not sure about 'freedom of association'. I think in white homogeneous Britain, it simply wasn't thought of. There were social segregations - e.g. Lords wouldn't invite tramps to tea; London clubs were members only, apart from staff; churches would discourage scruffy people from their congregations. However, usually the dislikes or lack of interests were recoprocated by both sides. In any case travel wasn't very easy so people tended not to move far from their familiar zones. Maybe in the USA because of the various groups (black slaves, Indians, whites, white slaves) it was more obviously an issue. However I may be wrong.

[rerevisionist]

Slotin is mentioned several times in Jungk's Brighter than a Thousand Suns. The account of two hemispheres touching as a result of Slotin's carelessness with a screwdriver is on p 178 of the Penguin English translation - dated 21 May 1946, his death following nine days later. BUT p. 177 states Slotin had been doing the same thing - '.. busy testing the interior mechanism ... in the habit of experimenting without taking any special protective measures..' - nearly a year earlier!

There was another post-Hiroshima death, on 21 Aug 1945, resulting in the death of someone called Harry Dagnian, says Jungk (p. 207) - 'an experiment with a small quantity of fissile material.'

I wonder if these people were just horsing around? I take your (and others) point about the 'criticality' idea appearing not credible on examination. And also the need to remove such people. Like the moon landings, in fact.

------------------------------
BTW there are accounts in David Irving's book The Virus House (1967) of the inflammability of powdered uranium, which also appears to react with water, removing the oxygen to give hydrogen, which of course is then likely to burn.

This book deals with the German nuclear programme, and deals largely with heavy water (to be used as a neutron moderator) and the preparation of uranium and attempts to separate U235 from U238. Thoughout, David naturally assumes that the bomb was successful (or if you prefer 'successful') in destroying Hiroshima and Nagaski. He met Groves, after all.

NB It's downloadable free from www.fpp.co.uk his imprint, the Focal Point Press
---------------------------

[FirstClassSkeptic]

There should be a scene where Albert Einstein tries to buy a candybar from a vending machine.

Albert spots the vending the machine, and approaches it. He ponders over the selection, muttering to himself. He decides what he wants;
Albert: "Oh, five cents. How outrageous. Let's see" Reaches into pocket. "Yes, I have a nickel. Now, how does it work?"

A boy rides up on a bicycle. And dismounts.
Boy: "Hurry up, pops. What's taking you so long?"
Albert: "Boy, could you help me a bit. I can't seen to figure out this machine."
Boy:"Sure, pops. Which one do you want?"
Albert hesitates a bit. Finger pressed to lips. "I want the, uh, the, humm, nutty bar."
Boy: "Sure, pops. Give me your nickel."
Albert, trustingly, hands the boy the nickel.
The boy take the nickel, then turns to the machine, hits the machine near the top, turns his body sideways, and give the machine a blow which his hip, then walks to the side and kicks the machine.

There's the sound of something sliding out.

Boy:"There you go, pops, one nutty bar."
Albert;"Where?"
Boy;"Right inside that hole. Just reach in an get it."
Albert reaches his hand in an removes the candybar. Looking at it he seems pleased.

Albert: "Thank you, son. You're quite a smart boy."
Albert turns to leave, but hesitates, and turns back.
Albert: "Can I have my nickel back?"
Boy:"YOUR nickel? That's my nickel.'
Albert: "But you took the candy without paying for it. That's stealing."
Boy: "No, pops. Remember? YOU took the candy bar. You GAVE me the nickel."
Albert:"Oh, yeah, that sounds logical. I guess."
Boy: "What are you? A jew, or something."
Albert: "I'm just a poor patent clerk."

[FirstClassSkeptic]

There was another post-Hiroshima death, on 21 Aug 1945, resulting in the death of someone called Harry Dagnian, says Jungk (p. 207) - 'an experiment with a small quantity of fissile material.'

https://members.tripod.com/arnold_dion/D ... ident.html

There was a man twelve feet away that it didn't affect at all.